For all of the excitement and new opportunities around every corner, living in Tokyo as a foreigner can be a rather solitary experience. Many challenges define “the gaijin experience,” such as language learning, unfamiliar social expectations, and finding your own community far from home. Overcoming these barriers is a worthy and fruitful journey. But for many, friends and family, your “shoulder to lean on” people, are far away and might not understand what it’s like where you are. In this context, it’s easy to find yourself without anyone to talk to about your everyday problems, both large and small.
It was this idea that inspired Tokyoites Jess and Thea to start “Behind the Yellow Curtain,” a conversational podcast which dives deep into the life and times of “third culture kids.” The show features the frank and personal talks of two friends who have very different stories but a common heart for mindfulness and “cultural curiosity.”
The conversations on BTYC often feature stories from the pair’s younger years growing up in Taiwan and Japan, moving all over the world, and eventually ending up back in Japan. But the beauty of the podcast is that many of the experiences they talk about are universally relatable no matter your background. Essentially, this is a podcast for anyone who’s ever gone through a period of isolation from the society around them and wondered, “is it just me?”
Each episode, Jess and Thea speak about how culture affects many aspects of our lives such as relationships, personality, ambition, and more. It is their honesty in telling their own stories and listening to each other that makes the podcast worth a listen - though it feels much more like joining the conversation yourself.
As the first season wraps up, I had the opportunity for a wonderful conversation with Jess and Thea. We talked about how they ended up doing this podcast in Tokyo, how their audience has connected with their stories, and where BTYC is going next.
Check out BTYC on Instagram, Spotify, and Youtube through their Linktree, and keep reading below for my interview with Jess and Thea!
Interview with Jess and Thea of “Behind the Yellow Curtain” Podcast
In the podcast, you two share a lot from your personal experiences growing up in different places. Could you tell me a little bit about each of your backgrounds and what led you to Tokyo?
Thea: My parents are Canadian and Japanese. I grew up in Osaka until I was 12, when I moved back to Canada with my mom. So for most of my formative years in Canada, I fully considered myself Japanese.
When I was 21, I moved back to Japan with the mindset of “I’m so ready to finally be home now.” But honestly, the reverse culture shock was a huge slap in the face. I no longer fit in like I had when I was a kid. Seeing social issues like sexism in the workplace showed me a new side of this home I had built up in my head.
I moved back to Canada for a few years, and I had this weird cultural crisis where I wasn’t sure where I would fit in more, Japan or Canada. I was searching for something black and white, a defined box to put myself in. After spending some time in Germany, I got an opportunity to come back to Japan for the second time. Initially, I still had that feeling of being ostracized from Japanese society. But then I met Jess and a few of our friends, and I slowly found the community I had never had before.
All that to say, I came here to stay in Japan forever. There are always challenges, but I want to make it work. I’ve gotten better at making space for myself to exist in that gray area.
Existing in that “gray area” is a feeling I think a lot of third culture kids can relate to. How about you, Jess?
Jess: For sure! I was born in Taiwan and moved to San Francisco in my teens. I decided to make the move because I had always wanted to study something creative, and I felt that the U.S. would be a better place for me to grow and study than Taiwan.
Life in the U.S. had its pros and cons. When I was growing up in Taiwan, I felt like an outcast and didn’t really fit in. Even though my new life in the States was very foreign to younger Jess (T: Baby Jess!), I felt much more in line with how people viewed the world and shared their passions. That’s why I decided to stay there.
Later, I moved to New York for work and experienced some really monumental moments during my time there, like the Black Lives Matter movement, the start of the pandemic, and the string of Asian hate that arose from that. I personally experienced everything from microaggressions to stark racism and sexism. All of those things sort of awoke something in me, something that wanted to help others going through the same things. After some major incidents at work, I put out a series of Instagram TV videos about my experience as an Asian woman. I got a lot of responses, some good and some bad. But I really felt like being able to express myself in this way activated a side of me I never knew before. That’s how I started my whole activist journey.
Then I got the opportunity to move to Japan, and I was pretty scared to be honest. I had visited before, and I had this image of Japan as being very privileged and safe and clean. Those are great things, but the flip side is that I was worried about not being culturally challenged and being able to express that “culturally curious” side of me as much.
For a lot of people, being less “culturally challenged” in the face of racism and sexism probably wouldn’t be such a bad thing. Why was this something you were worried about losing with the move to Japan?
J: All of my experiences in the States made me more empathetic and understanding to the people around me from unfamiliar cultures. I became more curious about different lifestyles and backgrounds. That formed part of who I am, being more outspoken but hopefully with a touch of mindfulness, too. This was in contrast to when I was growing up in Taiwan; I was very oblivious to other cultures as part of the majority.
So when I got the offer from Japan, I had an inner battle for a few months. I think most people would jump right on an offer to move to Japan, but it wasn’t an immediate yes for me.
Eventually, I thought that it might be good for me to move back to a place where I might be seen as part of the majority, at least as an Asian. I decided to give it a try. I thought it wouldn’t be as culturally challenging because Tokyo is very culturally diverse, but I found that foreigners are kind of placed in a separate box from Japanese society. There are still major barriers to welcoming outsiders into local culture.
T: The line between “Japanese” and “foreign” is very much still clear, and I think this is something you couldn’t have known until you moved here. I think it’s important to talk about it when you first arrive. It keeps you from getting into a radical way of thinking and isolating yourself even more.
So do you think your perspectives on culture and cultural issues have changed through the process of having these conversations on the podcast?
T: I think that the podcast has really changed my way of thinking. It's the first time doing a podcast for both of us, so it's definitely a learning experience. Sometimes when I listen back, I find things I've said to be very narrow-minded. That makes you a little more cautious about your perspective, because you realize your opinions are recorded out there. I don’t mean it in a “watch out it’s a PC world” kind of way, but more in the way that this podcasting experience has helped me grow in mindfulness of other perspectives.
J: I have learned a lot from listening to Thea’s point of view, which is often different from mine. That’s a good reminder that even if we have things in common, we still might not think the same way. It really helps me overcome the trap of thinking, “Oh I’m soooo open-minded,” and be a bit more humble.
T: We put some thought into the tone of the podcast when we first started - whether we lean more educational or more conversational. We didn’t want to get too educational, because we didn’t study these concepts academically. So we went more conversational, hoping we wouldn’t be lecturing people as if we're the highest authority on "open-mindedness."
J: I really believe that you really don’t need a credit sheet for your own story. But one thing about sharing your story is that you help others realize that others have common experiences, they’re not too sensitive and their feelings are valid. That alone makes it worth sharing, even if it is scary to put yourself out there like that.
Turning to the most recent chapter of your stories, what is your “gaijin experience” of Tokyo? Thea, you mentioned that it was tough to find a community at first, can you tell me more about that?
T: I think the “gaijin experience” comes in phases for everyone. It does depend on the person how they want to interact with Japanese culture here in Tokyo. There are people who work hard to integrate with Japanese society, and there are people who don’t even attempt it from the beginning.
That said, the first year is always tough. People come all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed thinking that Tokyo is this place with so many niche things to do and so many fun clubs and bars and whatever. And you can have a lot of fun in that mindset, but then you realize you’re not making a lot of deep connections with the people you’re spending time with. A lot of times, you end up being friends with people from work. If you’re lucky enough to have a work atmosphere which matches your vibe, that can be a great way to build community.
The podcast helped me on my journey to accepting where I am in Tokyo and learning to love it. The pros definitely outweigh the cons - every country has good and bad points. And more than anything, it’s a safe place to live. (J: Just that’s enough for me!)
What kind of feedback have you gotten from your listeners over the course of the first season? Any listeners here in Tokyo?
J: We initially thought our audience would be primarily third culture people, but realized we actually have a lot of Japanese listeners as well. Some people have contacted us to say that they were born and raised in Japan but still really relate with our conversations.
What did they say was relatable?
J: Some of my Japanese coworkers have listened to the podcast, which has led to very good and open conversations with some of them. Most of them are bilingual and studying in English, so it’s clear they’re already pretty open-minded to other cultures. And even though they’re Japanese, they’ve grown up here, and they’ve never experienced moving around to other countries, they said they were able to relate to the things we were talking about on the podcast. I think this shows that this isn’t just a podcast for “third culture kids,” but for anyone who feels a bit out of place.
T: We sometimes get comments from other countries, too, people who might not have the same experience but still have that “me too!” feeling.
J: Those comments also help to put things in perspective for us and realize these feelings aren’t just specific to our personal experiences. You don’t have to move from country to country to identify with the issues we’re talking about.
What’s next for the podcast? What can we expect from season 2?
J: When we first were trying to decide the end goal of the podcast, we kept coming back to the word “community. We’re using that theme to inform which direction we take the podcast next.
T: Season 2 will hopefully feature more guests, more opportunities for engagement, and hopefully some sort of gatherings for people here in Tokyo and across the world. We’re also talking about how to expand the focus to other perspectives while also becoming more specific. There’s so many interesting things to dive into here in Japan and in Tokyo specifically.
What advice would you have for someone who’s culturally curious and coming to live in Tokyo for the first time?
T: My advice would be to try different things and don’t let yourself get stuck in a rut. It’s best to find a hobby group or meet-up that helps you not get down too easily. The community aspect is so important. It takes effort, but it really does pay off.
J: You may not ever be considered Japanese, but don’t waste your time here by limiting yourself with that. Living here and connecting with people in Tokyo can be very fruitful, and there’s a lot you can learn here. I think we all can grow in empathy and humility, and that’s what having cultural challenges helps you with that. That kind of mindset is necessary no matter where you are.
This interview was conducted on October 5th, 2024. All images are courtesy of Behind the Yellow Curtain podcast.
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Hi! I'm a Tokyo local, and I started this blog to share helpful tips that only a local would know and tell some stories of the city's authentic culture through the people who live here. I hope you'll take a look around the site, follow us on Instagram, and find something that makes your Tokyo experience even more memorable. Thanks for reading!
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